adam: Cannot agree that the car is the most efficient form of transportation. It is only efficient under a certain regulatory environment which encourages sprawl and where city design lets cars choke out less armoured or more mass efficient options.

cam: Yeh but mass transport requires a mass of people going to one spot. Which is fine in a city, but not anywhere else and even then cities are spread out anyway.

A car also gives people what they want, which is a form of privacy, the ability to go where you want when you want to and an element of personalisation. You dont get any of that with mass transit.

adam: Well, towns can be more city-like, or more village-like if you prefer, without needing the vast amounts of people in cities. Eg, they can be built around walkable centres rather than around car parks, the open sewers of 20th century transportation. As for your other points, they are all certainly reasons that people drive cars, but they don't have much to do with efficiency, which is the point I was taking issue with.

cam: I think it is more efficient. I dont have much time these days and I would have several hours less in a day if I used public transportation. A train always requires a connector, whether bus, etc and they have stops for each passenger. I used to dread catching the train from Central to the Hawkesbury during the day as you would get stuck on one that did every stop between Redfern and Blacktown - twenty something stops. Took forever. Was faster to drive.

Unless life slows down cars offer people the most efficient form of transport in terms of time IMO.

adam: But look at the choices you made when you chose where to live, and when the city expanded out to the place where you live, and when the company you work for chose where to put it's office. If Phoenix is anything like Brisbane the assumptions were that the car was and always would be the best way to get anywhere. If you live in a public transport black hole of course driving is more efficient.

It's not even true of Bris anymore depending on where you chose to live - if you choose to live near a train line and work in town it is cheaper and quicker not to drive and park. Or live in town itself for that matter and walk to work.

Similarly when I chose my current flat I knew it had to be on a train line, with no changes, because I hate changes and I hate being stuck in traffic in a car or bus. It's 40 minutes door to desk because I chose to live a bit further out. This is easily quicker than driving through peak hour traffic and parking from this distance. I hate looking for parking, I would rather park five minutes away than spend five minutes looking for parking.

It's not going to be true of everyone but when a network is in place, and you are near it, it is far quicker and cheaper than driving.

Again though - and I guess after that spiel it is obvious I'm not the biggest car fan - none of this changes the legitimacy of your lifestyle choice to live in a particular location and choose the trade-offs associated with that.

cam: That is only true when public transportation is 'mass'. My example of the Richmond Rattlers in Sydney is a good example of how quickly it becomes inefficient for the user once it ceases to be mass transport.

There are just too many people doing too many things for mass transit to be efficient all the time. Phoenix is a car city. There is bugger all mass transit here. A light rail has gone in between Tempe and downtown Phoenix but that is about all. I probably wouldnt use it unless it dumped me right by my office, and even then I probably wouldnt.

The company I am with is moving near to the airport for production/shipping reasons away from the 101. So the transportation desires of its workers don't even rate.

Phil: Cam, I didn't take up residency there, but I was in the States with work for 2 occasions - 1983 and 1988.

The first in '83, LA was preparing for the '84 Olympics - LAX in particular was in turmoil, with a temporary inflatable terminal building while extensions happened. Rented a small condo at Marina Del Rey for that stay.

2nd stay in '88 (hitched by then) we stayed at Manhattan Beach. Both very nice communities.

Air quality often left a lot to be desired. But I found the people friendly and polite - 'specially to Aussies. There was no crime in those areas (though I did get off the Harbour Freeway at the wrong spot once and got worried about the ghetto neighbourhood I ended up in).

But I have very positive memories of the people and place.

cam: Phil, Yeh I really like America, have been here nearly ten years now. I am pretty poorly travelled on the west coast of the US though. So I am enjoying being over this side of the country so I can have a good look around.