cam: Bit retrograde the Enviro-peasant: I would not like to live like that. Kind of like Jefferson\'s yeomanry. Nice idea, but impossible.

Environmentalism is defined by technology anyway, and capitalism is remarkable in commoditising saleable technologies. We recently replaced our rear sliding door with one that had all sorts of thrills and spills with it that stopped heatflow through it. We didnt buy it at the local big-box store, but a specialist business sold it to us for not much more.

We have chinese lamps that are solar in our backyard now. They were $20 a pop. That is probably the beginning of solar panels being within the financial reach of the average home owner.

I will be glad when the labor specialisation inherent in the production of mass goods reduces environmental technologies more and more into a range that is affordable for me.

cam

adam: Environmentalism is defined by technology: I never really thought about it that way before, but of course you\'re right.  Since tech is the main means we have for our influence on the physical world.

Are they those nifty LED lamps?

Yeah, there seems to be a whole American tradition of striding off into the bush to become self-sufficient.  Thoreau actually did it for a few years, then came back into town to work at the pencil factory.  The green consensus seems to be around more of a village than a lone yeoman farmer, but the same flaws apply.

cam: I see no difference between: genetic modification of crops and permaculture. Both are technologies to minimise energy input and maximise energy output in a plot of land.

Those lamps are the nifty LED ones. I have one set so it reflects off our little pond to the back patio. Pretty neat at night. You cant read from them, but great for ambience.

Thoreau actually did it for a few years, then came back into town to work at the pencil factory.

I actually went to Walden Pond and had a goose at his little hut that he lived in while there. Beautiful spot, but harsh in winter. I think Thoreau was not only an outlier, but about ten standard deviations from the mean. When he was there he documented everything in exacting detail so he was using technology to give himself an advantage in the environment.

I think that is an American myth, bit like our Bush myth. Everyone agrees it is a romantic thought, but no-one wants to give up the Cadillac, cable or internet to do it. Bit like Jefferson who advocated a nation of virtuous yeomanry while ordering high-end wig powder from France at 50 francs a pop.

cam

adam: Virtue: Surely you don\'t buy that lousy knock-off Spanish wig powder! We\'re yeomen, not animals!

cam: I cant recall which book it is in: but Jefferson kept explicit records of his purchasing habits in France. If Menzies was an Edwardian dandy, then Jefferson was Franco-Franco-Franco-philic. I can\'t find it but he put himself into drastic debt looking the Frankish/Gaullish part.

Both Jefferson and Madison died in deep debt. Agrarians are perpetual debtors anyway (Hamilton understood capital much better) but when I was in Charlottesville, Virginia it is obvious that the land is exceptionally fertile. By modern standards they did not have to pay market rates for labour either (ie slaves), yet both managed to die as debtors.

I can recall arriving at Montpelier (Madison\'s property), the grass was water filled, the over-turned earth was a rich-red unlike Australia and the humidity was oppressive. Water and loamy-soil! Australian farmers would have gone berserk over such an advantageous environment.

I went up to one of the guide, almost exasperated, \"Mate, we have just come from Monticello (Jefferson\'s property) and looking here .... this is good, productive land .... why did they both die in debt?\"

The guide offered some explanation of Madison taking on some of his wayward relatives debts - but the fact is property was used to borrow against for speculation of land in modern-day Kentucky and to maintain a lavish lifestyle. They were perpetual debtors despite every advantage given to them in terms of environment, slaves (labour costs) and overseas demand of their primary product.

cam

avocadia: Jefferson: I seem to remember Jefferson spent a lot of money founding the University of Virginia. He also spent a lot of money on Monticello itself. Lastly, he was less a farmer than he was a rennaisance man.

cam: UVa: was a legislated public university. It was originally a little private college. While he donated his library to it, chose its location, designed the main building, created the curriculum, etc. I don\'t know that he gave money to it directly. The state of Virginia provided the funding. Maybe ranomatic is more intimate with its history.

cam

avocadia: Donation: Probable that I am mis-remembering the donation of the library as a donation of money.